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[01:25:22] * michaelni-tired waves to koda and to his neighbor which kept him from sleeping during the night
[01:25:32] <jdarnley> :(
[01:28:16] <kurosu> I've blocked my audio feed, not muted, and hopefully it is - please tell me if not
[01:29:11] <BBB> you're muted as far as I can see, so it's good
[01:34:43] <BBB> is the stream ok, can everyone follow?
[01:35:59] <jdarnley> Any comments?
[01:36:45] <michaelni-tired> with my bose headphones i can understand people, with my bluetooth headphones i can just understand jb ;)
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[01:41:22] <jamrial> it's hard to hear you, BBB
[01:41:47] <BBB> I said that a lot of us in this room have expressed the view that we are sort of burned out of ffmpeg-related work
[01:42:13] <BBB> not burned out in general, just very specifically burned out from ffmpeg-work, because there's a lot of .... unnice behaviour etc.
[01:42:16] <jdarnley> Your time to speak IRC
[01:44:50] <jamrial> we don't need a leader if we have a working voting comitee, composed of core members and not a huge list of people based on recent commit count
[01:45:20] <jamrial> the current list has people that haven't participated in years
[01:47:55] <kurosu> (ignore) yeah for triumvirate! who wants to be Pompey ?
[01:50:44] <jamrial> rules to start votes should be made, for that matter, to not allow things like "i want to call a vote to kick this guy that didn't agree with me. Deadline is as soon as you finish reading this email. Simple majority wins. I vote yes"
[01:51:05] <jamrial> (this has happened, albeit as a joke)
[01:54:08] <BBB> people on IRC, any comments on this subject?
[01:54:22] <BBB> michaelni-tired? kurosu?
[01:55:37] <kurosu> joke aside, technical or even political decisions can still be made through consensus of what we have BUT there must be people to make a clear cut decision - that never happens and so nothing seems to happen
[01:55:45] <jamrial> paul and nevcairiel aren't here
[01:55:58] <kurosu> so yeah, like a triumvirate is a good thing
[01:56:12] <kurosu> (imho)
[02:01:14] <kurosu> had a strange happening, is sound still cut off from me ?
[02:01:29] <kurosu> seems so
[02:01:32] <BBB> yes
[02:09:47] <michaelni-tired> BBB, no comments because i think people (as far as i understand them with headphones) bring up and discuss all points
[02:10:01] <BBB> ok, thanks
[02:11:04] <jamrial> biggest current issues are paul and nicolas constant fights regarding libavfilter, and people really not liking the fuzzing related patches
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[02:13:11] <jamrial> not sure how a technical comitee will help with the former, when paul and nicolas are the only devs that seem to care or know lavfi
[02:16:15] <kierank> jamrial: don't know if you heard but the answer is the social committee will deal with it
[02:17:49] <kierank> do you have any comments irc?
[02:17:55] <kierank> you are all very quiet
[02:20:13] <jamrial> i've heard about people not reporting bugs because they have to cross the roadblock that's carl in trac
[02:20:16] <jamrial> so yes, lots of image issues
[02:21:57] <kurosu> we can barely hear the one speaking
[02:22:05] <kurosu> (too late)
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[02:22:46] <BBB> we were briefly discussing carl-on-trac
[02:23:09] <BBB> brief break
[02:23:13] <jamrial> BBB: it's hard to hear you, for some reason
[02:23:15] <BBB> we continue in 10 minutes
[02:23:15] <kurosu> I'm ambiguous on this because I've seen both what a bug triaging team deals with, and even a call center
[02:23:19] <jamrial> the rest are fine
[02:23:31] <BBB> we all agree that carl is doing a great job managing the tracker
[02:23:39] <BBB> nobody is saying he should not be doing it or anything like that
[02:23:43] <kurosu> Carl is also the only doing this job to the extend he does it
[02:23:44] <BBB> but we can be nicer
[02:23:55] <BBB> image/pr etc., as jamrial said
[02:24:30] <kurosu> no, I mean, even people feel they are brushed aside because of this
[02:24:32] <jamrial> he's doing a great job curating tickets, but he can be irritating with strict requirements (all that about uncut console output) or telling people that we don't care about releases
[02:24:36] <michaelni-tired> I think people who had a disagreement on something and now are in person in tokio should use the opertunity to talk with each other to try solve it
[02:24:42] <kurosu> people don't consider the bluntness needed for efficiency
[02:24:49] <jamrial> and it seems to drive people away that think they are not being listened to
[02:24:50] <kurosu> have more staff doing it, it could work better
[02:25:39] <BradleyS> might i suggest consulting other orgs that have dealt with irreconcilable social issues successfully
[02:25:51] <BradleyS> hopefully some things can be resolved in person
[02:27:21] <BradleyS> generally speaking, these things happen with humans, and many orgs have good actionable policies that work
[02:27:45] <BradleyS> never hurts to seek outside counsel for advice
[02:28:58] <kierank> michaelni-tired: imo it's a bigger discussion that people need to agree to a process in a future
[02:32:37] <michaelni-tired> kierank, yes sure, i just meant that resolving one or the other issues between people would be better then not doing that
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[02:34:13] <kurosu> would it be possible to clarify who is attending the meeting IRL? In particular when not in the... viewport ?
[02:35:11] <kierank> elenril, diego, luca
[02:35:19] <kierank> they are out of view
[02:36:28] <kurosu> thanks
[02:38:42] * wbs too
[02:40:30] <kurosu> I'm not that acquainted with you all to identify from voice only
[02:41:30] <kurosu> that and sound quality
[02:41:48] <kurosu> (move micro to room center maybe?)
[02:42:15] <j-b> BradleyS: that is exactly wwhat I am doing
[02:42:25] <BradleyS> 👍
[02:42:31] <j-b> the suggestion that I am making are based on experience on other communities
[02:42:39] <j-b> I spnt a lot of time on that.
[02:43:16] <kierank> STARTING AGAIN
[02:43:58] * jdarnley is in the room
[02:44:50] * BradleyS is only following here
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[02:56:05] <kurosu> (ignore) Deus Ex Machina!
[02:57:11] <jdarnley> If you do not want to start the process of comitte selection PLEASE SAY IT NOW
[02:58:47] <ePirat> (outsider opinion) If you do not decide/agree nothing today, nothing will happen… (again)
[02:59:00] <Illya> my opinion here also
[03:00:59] <kurosu> is this now about voting (or some such decision) for people into the committee or for holding that vote later?
[03:01:18] <kurosu> (I'm fine with both, but we're far from being a quorum here)
[03:01:38] <Jessidhia> (outsider) this is a vote to agree to have a committee at all
[03:02:05] <kurosu> ok, that does sound better
[03:03:29] <jamrial> what if we want someone that's not present here to be in the comittee? we vote for them, and then they say if they are ok being in it?
[03:04:25] <jamrial> i agree it should be voted now, btw. at the very least a draft/temporary thing
[03:04:55] <kierank> It is temporary
[03:05:01] <jamrial> ok
[03:05:18] <jamrial> because i sure want some people not present here in it
[03:05:29] <kierank> Yes, we agree here
[03:06:10] <jdarnley> Carl in particular has raised that significant developers are not here
[03:06:29] <jdarnley> IRL, IRC, Hangouts
[03:07:07] <kurosu> yea, quorum not reached, hence the temporary thing -  hopefully time till next vote will allow for quorum
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[03:08:04] <jdarnley> If people didn't hear, j-b wants another meeting in about 2 weeks, and maybemore meeting in/around FOSDEM
[03:08:16] <kurosu> please check how many people that would be voting
[03:08:29] <kurosu> otherwise you may get a low participation in the vote anyway
[03:09:07] <jdarnley> Yes, we are discussing who gets a vote for the temporary thing
[03:09:45] <kurosu> that's why I'm mentioning it
[03:09:53] <kurosu> because I haven't heard it
[03:10:16] <jdarnley> I will try to repeat more
[03:11:43] <kierank> We are going through options for voting
[03:14:43] <Jessidhia> (outsider) how should the voting itself be done. Single choice? Ranked choice? Don't mind me if this is derailing
[03:14:47] <kierank> Do you have any proposals
[03:14:53] <BBB> my shortlog says 60 people committed 20 patches or more in last 3 years
[03:16:00] <jdarnley> I will copy these points in a moment
[03:18:07] <kurosu> given that criterion, I may  be disqualified from voting (so be it)
[03:19:35] <JEEB> yes, and me most likely, but yes - so be it
[03:19:45] <JEEB> (if that is picked)
[03:20:02] <kurosu> git shortlog -s -n --since="3 years ago"
[03:20:14] <jdarnley> Okay here comes the points
[03:20:21] <jamrial> how would lottery work? a pool of several comittee members where reduced amount of people are chosen randomly for each vote?
[03:20:38] <JEEB> jamrial: yes taht would be the problem with lottery: it would have to be decided
[03:20:57] <Jessidhia> (jb suggested that) voting right now will be single choice with runoffs
[03:21:34] <kurosu> I'd be for Condorcet method (having an experience in a project called Democratic Experience) but two-round French election is a way anyway (though we've heard of the issues of such a method of voting)
[03:21:49] <jdarnley> 1 - Developers active over a certain period (maybe 36 months) who have s certain number of non-trivial commits (maybe 20) + a finite number active people (maybe 5)
[03:21:50] <mjbshaw> With "finite number", I mean Alexander Strasser and Moritz (Carl Eugen)
[03:22:10] <jdarnley> 2 - Old voting comittee
[03:22:30] <kurosu> yeah, JEEB and me would vote fit then (or is it I and JEEB )
[03:22:54] <JEEB> j-b will receive your vuotes over IRC in a query
[03:22:55] <jdarnley> 3 - The group from 1 plus a single nomination from each one of them
[03:22:59] <JEEB> and he is not voting himself
[03:23:09] <jdarnley> 4 - A lottery
[03:23:20] <jdarnley> 5 - git committ access
[03:24:25] <jdarnley> Did everyone hear j-b 's speech to camera?
[03:24:34] <jamrial> yes
[03:24:47] <Jessidhia> kurosu: jb also mentioned it (seems Debian does it) but I guess it's french style for expediency
[03:25:02] <jamrial> 1 sounds a lot like the old voting comitee
[03:25:09] <kurosu> I don't get to vote after this vote anyway :D
[03:25:17] <Jessidhia> (as an outsider I am also abstaining)
[03:25:35] <JEEB> j-b will receive your vuotes over IRC in a query
[03:25:46] <JEEB> kurosu, michaelni-tired , jamrial ^
[03:25:52] <j-b> jamrial: I'm waiting for your votes
[03:25:55] <kurosu> already sent
[03:26:00] <j-b> michaelni-tired: same
[03:27:02] <kurosu> we call 1 "Meritocraty" in French
[03:27:27] <j-b> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-round_system
[03:29:39] <kurosu> and it mentions Le Pen, nice article then :D
[03:29:44] <jdarnley> Vote counting is in progress
[03:30:19] <Jessidhia> j-b and lydia are executing, rcombs and kierank are witnessing it
[03:31:24] <jdarnley> The result is in
[03:31:31] <jdarnley> 11 1 2 1 2
[03:32:34] <ePirat> please dont scream into the iphone, RIP my ears :D
[03:33:16] <Jessidhia> _general assembly_ voting power settled on people 20 nontrivial commits over 36mo + a small number of exceptions
[03:34:19] <kurosu> Jessidhia: are you present in the room ?
[03:34:49] <kurosu> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condorcet_method
[03:34:51] <Jessidhia> I am, but I am trying to just observe
[03:35:12] <Jessidhia> rcombs suggests Single Transferrable Voting
[03:35:14] <Illya> example: git shortlog -nse --since="36 months ago" --author="Jan Ek"
[03:35:33] <JEEB> kurosu: did you want to put that as an alternative?
[03:36:01] <kurosu> that's debian
[03:36:10] <JEEB> ok, j-b added it
[03:36:15] <koda> the SVT method is explained here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8XOZJkozfI
[03:36:46] <kurosu> so SVT is about the coding tools that get activated ? :-]
[03:36:51] <JEEB> :D
[03:37:27] <koda> i see what you did there
[03:38:02] <Jessidhia> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_transferable_vote
[03:40:03] <kurosu> I don't think it matters, I'm maybe naive but I don't think it will be gamed, nor it matters if it is
[03:42:03] <BBB> anyone on IRC have opinions on voting systems?
[03:43:31] <Jessidhia> ranked voting has a small consensus but the bigger consensus is "don't know / don't care"
[03:43:31] <lu_zero> for the curious https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulze_method
[03:43:35] <jdarnley> It looks like we have settled on a ranked system of some sort
[03:44:45] <Jessidhia> nominate 3 people, in order, to a committee of 5 (?)
[03:45:03] <michaelni-tired> i do but have an oppinion but thats technical and outside of available time and peoples interrest i think also iam too tired, and i agree that it should be a ranked system
[03:45:19] <Jessidhia> rcombs volunteers to implement the vote counting right now
[03:46:10] <jdarnley> michaelni-tired are you sure?
[03:46:29] <Jessidhia> people who you vote for do not need to be people with voting rights
[03:46:29] <kurosu> (ignore) in Rust? is rcombs confident in his escaping the user input ? :D
[03:47:19] <Jessidhia> first vote right now for technical committee, second vote for community committee
[03:47:32] <jdarnley> Revoting at fosdem
[03:47:36] <jdarnley> on everything
[03:47:37] <Jessidhia> everything will be re-voted at FOSDEM
[03:47:38] <jdarnley> people
[03:47:42] <jdarnley> systems
[03:49:39] <jdarnley> online voters: query j-b with your ranked choices for technical comittee first
[03:52:46] <michaelni-tired> maybe iam too tired but why dont all the people with voting rights vote instead of just us ?
[03:52:50] <Jessidhia> feel free to write down votes for community committee while technical committee is counted
[03:53:01] <kurosu> michaelni-tired: this is temporary only
[03:53:26] <Jessidhia> this is for the temporary vote to set things up and avoid getting blocked michaelni-tired, then FOSDEM will re-vote everything
[03:55:02] <j-b> EVERYTHING is temporary until FOSDEM anyway
[03:55:19] <j-b> which will have a proper complete vote
[03:55:25] <Jessidhia> rcombs says counting will follow the Droop quota, for people who care about the technicalities of STV
[03:55:57] <j-b> You can send vote for community
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[03:58:06] <michaelni-tired> iam too tired think but ill try to send some lists
[03:58:27] <j-b> please do
[03:58:33] <j-b> remember, we revote at FOSDEM
[04:02:56] <michaelni-tired> voted but really iam too tired to think clearly
[04:03:34] <jamrial> that's ok, it's temporal
[04:03:36] <jamrial> i'm in the same state
[04:03:55] <kurosu> michaelni-tired: even if not tired,  only time permits - and you'll have more next time
[04:04:03] <JEEB> aye
[04:09:30] <jdarnley> Next meeting December 1st
[04:09:34] <jdarnley> online, offline, both
[04:12:53] <kurosu> online is FOSDEM ?
[04:12:59] <jdarnley> A Sunday
[04:13:20] <kurosu> ah, OSDEM is February
[04:14:01] <jdarnley> yes
[04:14:19] <jdarnley> FOSDEM will be a re-run of todays voting
[04:14:29] <kurosu> what's the occasion for the offline ? (like what meeting/...)
[04:15:58] <jdarnley> December 1st will be validation of today's vote
[04:16:17] <jdarnley> Something will be written and sent to the mailing list
[04:16:31] <jdarnley> That will give 2 weeks for objections to be raised
[04:17:38] <jdarnley> That thing will be explaining what was decided today in better detail and with clarity
[04:18:10] <jdarnley> I do not know who will be tasked with writing that.
[04:22:31] <kurosu> Which James? Darnley? Almer? Another one ?
[04:22:40] <BBB> almer
[04:22:54] <kurosu> ok, thanks
[04:22:54] <BBB> closing session now, still counting community committee
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[04:28:11] <BBB> still ongoing
[04:29:02] <BBB> turned camera so ou can see them doing condorcet or whatever by hand
[04:31:01] <kurosu> I see some people I was not expecting :)
[04:31:08] <BBB> james A, thilo, carl, jb, lydia
[04:31:11] <kierank> JB, Lydia, jamrial, thilo, carl
[04:31:19] <BBB> is community committee
[04:32:09] <BBB> TC was michael, BBB, jamrial, martin, anton
[04:32:48] <jamrial> alright
[04:33:11] <BBB> and we are now shutting down to go to the karaoke bar
[04:33:35] <jamrial> have fun :p
[04:33:37] <jamrial> i'm going to sleep
[04:33:41] <BBB> thank you, see you guys later
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[04:33:49] <jamrial> later
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[04:33:59] <michaelni-tired> same, have fun all, iam also maybe going to sleep
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